"If we believe His wisdom is greater than ours, why do we instinctively assume that it’s unfair or outdated whenever it conflicts with our own understanding?"
I think this is the question we need to drill into the most regularly, with so much of scripture. My reaction to a challenging verse reveals something about the state of my own heart, whether that be right or wrong.
I think we too easily fall into the trap of asking why God would do something instead of receiving the opportunity to self-examine and as to why we're responding how we are.
Sometimes we do need to better understand why God gives certain instructions. Other times we miss the opportunities that God gives us to instead look inward and examine the state of our souls.
Honestly, many women would not have to lead in churches if men would step up and lead. My pastor recently did a sermon about duty versus devotion. He talked about beanbag Christians who are comfortable and cozy in the church, but they are not moving or doing anything. I am so thankful for the many faithful women who taught me in Sunday School and laid the groundwork for my Biblical knowledge.
Christian cosmology really helped me see this differently. We are made in His image, yes, and then our relationships are also made in an image showcased in Creation. What follows in Timothy reinforces the order of cosmological image. It’s about aligning with the image of the Grand Design. It doesn’t diminish even the birds or creeping things, let alone a woman. It places everything in proper order. To find wisdom outside of it is eating the fruit of disorder. That’s what Genesis 1 fleshes out. Most of the Bible is about people trying to be wiser than God and all fall short.
That said, I agree with your intuition about fit leadership and better vetting. Totally warranted
Ms Mandy (I live in the south now y’all) this is really solid! You have a good mind & spiritual discernment. I’m so happy you’re on Substack & I stumbled across you, your writing & art!
I had a lot of young women go thru our Bible school in the Philippines & quite honestly, many were better, sharper, & more spiritual than my guys & I had a bunch of guys who were great & went on to do great things.
One graduating class consisted of 3 young ladies. One of, if not the best, grad class I was privileged to teach & mentor. They all went on to full time ministry. 2 we sent out to Thailand as missionaries & I officiated 2 of their weddings (maybe it was all 3?🤔). I saw them all last year & they are still serving the Lord & a blessing.
Thank you. I really appreciate your encouragement and your perspective. Stories like these are such a good reminder of how faithfully God has used women throughout the life of the Church.
Not all of my work is this theological in form but it is in heart. I also create erasure poems with collages and short reflections and they all flow from my faith.
I was raised Catholic, then lapsed, then returned to the Biblical texts seriously while living in China, seeing atheism in action. So I'll look forward to reading more of your work.
Excellent insight. There are to my mind several aspects of such verses which we often don't consider. First of all, women in the first century were treated as property, whose role was only men's sexual pleasure and bearing children. Christianity elevated women to equality, but there was no doubt a strong cultural countercurrent against women in leadership because of the widespread conception and culture of women as essential non-entities. We see the same, but opposite thing today with feminism, which says that anything a man can do, a woman can do, (including becoming a man.😱). While it is certainly true that there are many things that both can do, nevertheless, it is a denial of physical and biologic reality to insist on this. The other aspect of this is the issue of authority. Authority in God's plan is not superiority/inferiority, but is a proper order designed for the best roles and responsibilities for men and women. Christ is our authority, and we submit to him, but he treats us as equals, as treasured sons and daughters. Men are positioned in authority, but "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church..." In God's economy, authority = service, not authority = power and control.
In the writing and translating of the bible over 2000 years, I can’t see how this endeavor would not become a game of telephone. Perhaps, it should be read as poetry— breathed in— catching scents of the message; rather than viewing a rigid framework.
Also, I am in the mindset, that women better suit the role of leadership.
The braun and impulsivity it takes to club an attacking dire wolf, is a quality of little salience in the current demand of leadership.
I appreciate your thoughts. My struggle wasn’t really about who I think would make the better leader its more about whether I’m willing to let Scripture challenge my cultural assumptions.
While it’s true that there’s a long tradition in translations, it’s even more true that there are a greater number of manuscripts at our disposal today than ever before.
So, instead of us having less certainty about the original writings of Paul, Peter, Matthew, etc. with time, we actually have more certainty than ever!
I personally think the folks who are so insistent on their authority aren't always the best qualified to have it.
Feels a bit hokey to draw a Tolkien allusion here I guess, but since that's good enough for the pope I'm going to go ahead and say it's good enough for me: I believe Aragorn didn't prove he was fit to be king with his bloodline, being part of the patriarchy or with some big alpha energy. He proved it by being willing to venture out into the darkness to bring Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry back to the living—at great expense to himself. He placed himself between them and the darkness. Show me the folks with that track record, man or woman, and I'll consider them my elder.
That being said, I also feel I need to get my laundry on a more consistent schedule before I'm qualified to lecture society and adjudicate Christian org charts. On that, I've a long way to go. 😄
Always appreciate your reflections. I think we’d both agree that no one is fit for leadership simply because they desire it or possess the right status. Christlike character has to come first.
You bring up some great points. It is true there is always an ' us vs them ' in just about every instance people are categorized. That's where scripture comes in to guide us and make us ask these questions!
What stayed with me is not only the question of authority, but the humility required before a difficult text. I appreciate that you are not pretending to have resolved everything. Still, I also think submission should never become an excuse to stop interpreting, questioning, or examining the historical world in which a passage was written. Faithfulness may require both reverence and discernment.
I hate reading things like this because they dig at my conscience. Over the years I've subtly learned to embrace the parts of feminism that I like and that allow me to ignore passages like this one in 1 Timothy, while rejecting other parts of cultural feminism (I shave my pits, and I'm pro-life).
You bring up some good points about how leadership in the church for men is less restricted than for women but still restricted. And I agree with the points in the comments about how men should be doing more in the church instead of letting women lead when they shouldn't have to. But I can't help balking at anything that implies men and women are unequal- and that's what I read in 1 Timothy, not a commentary on different gender roles.
I congratulate you for being far enough from the influence of our culture that you were able to write this with such graciousness and humility. I think I have a long way to go before I can release my bitterness about this subject and learn to take the Bible literally on this one rather than reading it as an obsolete relic from ancient cultures.
I love your thoughts behind this. Opening your mind to what this actually says vs what our culture condemns. So many good questions here and I think you are on to something in asking not why can we (women) do something but why are men called to it? I always love your approach to these somewhat “controversial” topics because you lead them with such wisdom and grace. And it’s like, why can’t we all broach these topics the way they should be broached: with open hearts and minds relying that God will give us the wisdom we need to understand in the way only our minds can?
I am a man. Our church is part of ECO, covenant order of evangelical Presbyterians. Our church left the PCUSA due to theological drift, to put it mildly. I think our church and denomination is quite solid in being Bible based. However, one of the prime tenets of the denomination is egalitarianism. I had never even really thought of this until a couple of years ago. Based on the passage you cited and other articles, I have read regarding this passage, this is definitely an area of tension at Best. We do have one woman Pastor, and a few women who are lay pastors. So far, this hasn’t caused us to leave the church. But it is still troubling. I wish I had something more profound to offer at this time. God bless…
I really appreciated this piece! I brought it up with my husband and we ended up chatting about the work we've done as this point gets brought up when we talk to atheists or agnostics against Christianity. Most of the time, their "issue" with scripture is a fear that a culture has created and festered. In our case, my husband and I would together talk to these people who had concerns about men and women. Role modeling our love and respect for each other while talking about the scripture helped many of these folks shift out of their defensiveness and be open to talking about those different personal fears (which was easier to address since God has many answers for those in the scripture.) When I myself have something bubble up, I usually pause to journal and pray with what came up. It's a practice for sure though, it's uncomfortable to sit with it depending on what that root issue is.
"If we believe His wisdom is greater than ours, why do we instinctively assume that it’s unfair or outdated whenever it conflicts with our own understanding?"
I think this is the question we need to drill into the most regularly, with so much of scripture. My reaction to a challenging verse reveals something about the state of my own heart, whether that be right or wrong.
I think we too easily fall into the trap of asking why God would do something instead of receiving the opportunity to self-examine and as to why we're responding how we are.
Sometimes we do need to better understand why God gives certain instructions. Other times we miss the opportunities that God gives us to instead look inward and examine the state of our souls.
I couldn’t agree more. I think our first response should always be to examine our own hearts before questioning God’s wisdom.
Honestly, many women would not have to lead in churches if men would step up and lead. My pastor recently did a sermon about duty versus devotion. He talked about beanbag Christians who are comfortable and cozy in the church, but they are not moving or doing anything. I am so thankful for the many faithful women who taught me in Sunday School and laid the groundwork for my Biblical knowledge.
I wholeheartedly agree that faithful women have been indispensable to the Church.
Christian cosmology really helped me see this differently. We are made in His image, yes, and then our relationships are also made in an image showcased in Creation. What follows in Timothy reinforces the order of cosmological image. It’s about aligning with the image of the Grand Design. It doesn’t diminish even the birds or creeping things, let alone a woman. It places everything in proper order. To find wisdom outside of it is eating the fruit of disorder. That’s what Genesis 1 fleshes out. Most of the Bible is about people trying to be wiser than God and all fall short.
That said, I agree with your intuition about fit leadership and better vetting. Totally warranted
I think so much of the Christian life is learning to submit to God’s wisdom before our own.
As far as I can tell, that’s the faith we walk by
Amen to that
Love this, Mandy!
Ms Mandy (I live in the south now y’all) this is really solid! You have a good mind & spiritual discernment. I’m so happy you’re on Substack & I stumbled across you, your writing & art!
I had a lot of young women go thru our Bible school in the Philippines & quite honestly, many were better, sharper, & more spiritual than my guys & I had a bunch of guys who were great & went on to do great things.
One graduating class consisted of 3 young ladies. One of, if not the best, grad class I was privileged to teach & mentor. They all went on to full time ministry. 2 we sent out to Thailand as missionaries & I officiated 2 of their weddings (maybe it was all 3?🤔). I saw them all last year & they are still serving the Lord & a blessing.
Thank you. I really appreciate your encouragement and your perspective. Stories like these are such a good reminder of how faithfully God has used women throughout the life of the Church.
Wow . . . I don't see many people writing like this these days. Love theological writing. Is theology prominent in all of your work, Mandy?
Not all of my work is this theological in form but it is in heart. I also create erasure poems with collages and short reflections and they all flow from my faith.
I was raised Catholic, then lapsed, then returned to the Biblical texts seriously while living in China, seeing atheism in action. So I'll look forward to reading more of your work.
Excellent insight. There are to my mind several aspects of such verses which we often don't consider. First of all, women in the first century were treated as property, whose role was only men's sexual pleasure and bearing children. Christianity elevated women to equality, but there was no doubt a strong cultural countercurrent against women in leadership because of the widespread conception and culture of women as essential non-entities. We see the same, but opposite thing today with feminism, which says that anything a man can do, a woman can do, (including becoming a man.😱). While it is certainly true that there are many things that both can do, nevertheless, it is a denial of physical and biologic reality to insist on this. The other aspect of this is the issue of authority. Authority in God's plan is not superiority/inferiority, but is a proper order designed for the best roles and responsibilities for men and women. Christ is our authority, and we submit to him, but he treats us as equals, as treasured sons and daughters. Men are positioned in authority, but "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church..." In God's economy, authority = service, not authority = power and control.
In the writing and translating of the bible over 2000 years, I can’t see how this endeavor would not become a game of telephone. Perhaps, it should be read as poetry— breathed in— catching scents of the message; rather than viewing a rigid framework.
Also, I am in the mindset, that women better suit the role of leadership.
The braun and impulsivity it takes to club an attacking dire wolf, is a quality of little salience in the current demand of leadership.
I appreciate your thoughts. My struggle wasn’t really about who I think would make the better leader its more about whether I’m willing to let Scripture challenge my cultural assumptions.
While it’s true that there’s a long tradition in translations, it’s even more true that there are a greater number of manuscripts at our disposal today than ever before.
So, instead of us having less certainty about the original writings of Paul, Peter, Matthew, etc. with time, we actually have more certainty than ever!
I personally think the folks who are so insistent on their authority aren't always the best qualified to have it.
Feels a bit hokey to draw a Tolkien allusion here I guess, but since that's good enough for the pope I'm going to go ahead and say it's good enough for me: I believe Aragorn didn't prove he was fit to be king with his bloodline, being part of the patriarchy or with some big alpha energy. He proved it by being willing to venture out into the darkness to bring Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry back to the living—at great expense to himself. He placed himself between them and the darkness. Show me the folks with that track record, man or woman, and I'll consider them my elder.
That being said, I also feel I need to get my laundry on a more consistent schedule before I'm qualified to lecture society and adjudicate Christian org charts. On that, I've a long way to go. 😄
Always appreciate your reflections. I think we’d both agree that no one is fit for leadership simply because they desire it or possess the right status. Christlike character has to come first.
You bring up some great points. It is true there is always an ' us vs them ' in just about every instance people are categorized. That's where scripture comes in to guide us and make us ask these questions!
Definitely. Scripture should always be what brings us back to the right questions.
I agree and I think about this all the time. There is a lot that I would say is cultural more than it is Scriptural.
That’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot too learning to distinguish between what’s cultural and what’s truly biblical.
What stayed with me is not only the question of authority, but the humility required before a difficult text. I appreciate that you are not pretending to have resolved everything. Still, I also think submission should never become an excuse to stop interpreting, questioning, or examining the historical world in which a passage was written. Faithfulness may require both reverence and discernment.
I agree that humility and discernment belong together as we study Scripture.
I hate reading things like this because they dig at my conscience. Over the years I've subtly learned to embrace the parts of feminism that I like and that allow me to ignore passages like this one in 1 Timothy, while rejecting other parts of cultural feminism (I shave my pits, and I'm pro-life).
You bring up some good points about how leadership in the church for men is less restricted than for women but still restricted. And I agree with the points in the comments about how men should be doing more in the church instead of letting women lead when they shouldn't have to. But I can't help balking at anything that implies men and women are unequal- and that's what I read in 1 Timothy, not a commentary on different gender roles.
I congratulate you for being far enough from the influence of our culture that you were able to write this with such graciousness and humility. I think I have a long way to go before I can release my bitterness about this subject and learn to take the Bible literally on this one rather than reading it as an obsolete relic from ancient cultures.
I love your thoughts behind this. Opening your mind to what this actually says vs what our culture condemns. So many good questions here and I think you are on to something in asking not why can we (women) do something but why are men called to it? I always love your approach to these somewhat “controversial” topics because you lead them with such wisdom and grace. And it’s like, why can’t we all broach these topics the way they should be broached: with open hearts and minds relying that God will give us the wisdom we need to understand in the way only our minds can?
I am a man. Our church is part of ECO, covenant order of evangelical Presbyterians. Our church left the PCUSA due to theological drift, to put it mildly. I think our church and denomination is quite solid in being Bible based. However, one of the prime tenets of the denomination is egalitarianism. I had never even really thought of this until a couple of years ago. Based on the passage you cited and other articles, I have read regarding this passage, this is definitely an area of tension at Best. We do have one woman Pastor, and a few women who are lay pastors. So far, this hasn’t caused us to leave the church. But it is still troubling. I wish I had something more profound to offer at this time. God bless…
I really appreciated this piece! I brought it up with my husband and we ended up chatting about the work we've done as this point gets brought up when we talk to atheists or agnostics against Christianity. Most of the time, their "issue" with scripture is a fear that a culture has created and festered. In our case, my husband and I would together talk to these people who had concerns about men and women. Role modeling our love and respect for each other while talking about the scripture helped many of these folks shift out of their defensiveness and be open to talking about those different personal fears (which was easier to address since God has many answers for those in the scripture.) When I myself have something bubble up, I usually pause to journal and pray with what came up. It's a practice for sure though, it's uncomfortable to sit with it depending on what that root issue is.